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Micah Hees's avatar

Amazing work, seriously. I think NU is very much under appreciated!

EdwardP's avatar

½ - continued in the replies

Many thanks for writing this fine work, and on a subject closely in tune with one of the most important problems now facing the human species. I am not a utilitarian, although it is a position that I admire. I am also a fan of (David Pearce's) biohappiness proposal,

and I consider it one of the greatest idea so far made in history. I consider contributions to it worthy, both out of a compassion for the numerous sentient beings undergoing woes, and also a contributor to the resolution of our (current) human-historical conundrum, of the issue of progress- namely, that any progress involved the creation of more destitution and harm than ever seen in the previous hundreds of thousands of years, however great the advance for some group. Here, I present various remarks, and critiques, both from a position of support, and opposition, on the specific examples, their principles, the overall worldview, and my own guiding thoughts.

I should note that I wrote this in reverse order, so that the following "Pump #X" section was done first, then the introduction, and then this, and the next sentence: before writing this, I did not check the comment section, so I did not know that you do not consider yourself a utilitarian, and the object to more narrowly compare this with classical utilitarianism; do not consider it personal, if not applicable.

Pump #1

I assume you meant to say, that there is only one such pill in existence. Otherwise, it seems quite strange to not give the pill to the friend, too, or at least save it for later. But even so

This is trying to cause us to analogize the case, as if it is someone deriving greater pleasure from imposing a lesser suffering. However, if we concentrate on the fact that this is not explicit, it becomes much less 'incredibly callous'. For example, acting in a jovial manner can help ease other's burdens. We know from experience that people can also cheer themselves up from telling a joke. Likewise, if we concentrate on the fact, that alleviating other's suffering is also often motivated by a feeling of pleasure, and since this is arguing for decreasing suffering, surely we do not want to prima facie discard this as something bad. Finally, we should concentrate that, contrary to this case, it is not some necessary connection that being happier makes us feel more manic, or unable to recognize others' emotions. It seems, as a general rule, easier to help reduce suffering, if one is pleased, than if one is suffering- for most people, the automatic instincts kick in and make them focus only on themselves.

So, I would say that this pump does not motivate the claim that "If someone, or a population, is sufficiently happy or derives sufficient happiness from others’ sacrifices, these other people have a moral obligation to make them even happier at a cost to themselves". None of that is obviously indicated. It might be the case, and is also common sense for many people which do not have a codependent personality, that we shouldn't be as effortful into helping already got-it-all callous egoists, but it is more difficult to grant the more narrow claim attempted in this text. However, we also have to be mindful that this is trying to analogize different personalities or mental types. This is a caricature on some cluster B personality disorder or bipolar behavior, right? Well, the problem is that people sometimes are still very different, in this sense too, under negative utilitarianism. We could also think of similar sounding intuition pumps, but just choose an example of a cluster C personality or major depressive disorder behavior.

It is also not clear whether it is a benefit, from even a long-term perspective, to have no people who are a little callous towards ordinary pain. Now, here I do not mean the cancer, but rather the sadness at the news, and the other's behavior. Of course, that can still be quite uncomfortable, and in the future hopefully also eliminated, but as long as we're doing formulaic comparisons of the intensity of the pain, it shall remain relevant; even if not with pain, then let's say, lesser or greater feeling of pleasure. So this should not obviously persuade the classic hedonistic utilitarian (henceforth CHU).

Pump #2

I actually broadly agree with this, although with extra emphasis on long-tailed, extreme pain. However, the explanation is a little too remotely related to the case, I'm afraid. Be that as it may, it is not so simple to endorse utilitarianism here always, rather than various kinds of interacting consequentialisms. In fact, you already mention one such problem- if the police were all very empathetic, they might not be able to handle seriously violent offenders. More generally, it assumes that sadist/masochist interactions are comparable to "agents constantly struggle for supremacy in order to subject others to their whims". Yet, this is often not the case.

Some examples of this are genocide, or modern factory farming. I do not mean to say they are endorsed by CHU; it should certainly be a very plausible reason to reject it, if this was the matter of fact. Rather, I mean to say that these 'gaps' do exist, and I think they, in one way and generically speaking now, indicate the overcoming of different agents. "Mere" settlements are not enough, and these need to be binding forces to have any impact- no wonder that the creator of utilitarianism was a jurist, and primarily applied it to the realm of law. However, I think it goes deeper. Any true, not even just ethical, but action, requires a self-overcoming of more limited ideas of what the self or the agent are. We can debate how, in which cases, etc, but this is my idea on the connection between 'power' and 'progress'. So it applies to utilitarianism, just as any other ethical system. Now, as a woolly trans/posthumanist, for hedonic valence, I do think it probably implies a world regulator and network of it along with emotions, for different needs managed and carried by a mix of machines, biology, etc - on this, also quite inspired by David Pearce - but I digress, although to note this is where I diverge from utilitarianism as a whole, and think of something else as more fundamental.

Pump #3

Let's grant, for now, that it does not endorse anti-natalism, and even, that your described state would be net barely positive. Strictly following negative utilitarianism might still lead to unideal conclusions in the real world, from the perspective of economic development. Now, we probably do not want to say, Mao was a swell guy, even if he did help out some on that end. However, it seems that, almost without exception, the transition from pre-industrial to industrial society allowed massively more suffering, only to then massively improve many living standards later on- although, sad to say, there are some places in which we're still not sustainably on the upshot side, and in the case of animal agriculture, even the light at the end of the tunnel is not visible. So, it might be that NU commits us against industrialization-equivalent transitions; yet, one might argue, such a transition was needed, because, it might allow for the eventual possibility of the very abolitionist project.

Pump #4

If you would agree that NU does not imply anything I've outlined in the response to pump #3, then it also becomes less clear how this is a defeater for CHU. In my opinion, weighing suffering as significant implies a conditional antinatalism anyway, at a minimum or otherwise- under this broad tent, as opposed to pronatalism, which says that, as a rule, reproduction is morally good or neutral; and there are at least, too many exceptions in my view, for this to be a rule.

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